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 Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)

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Voltage
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Registration date : 2009-03-15
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Location : San Francisco

PostSubject: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:03 am

I want to take a minute to explain a bit more in depth about Conviction's loot system. We are a little unique in that we run a hybrid DKP/Loot Council system. As most of you know, for most items that drop from bosses we run a single blind bid dkp system. Raiders are required to send their bids to the loot master and the highest bid wins the item for the amount of the second highest bid +5.

For Example:
- [RW][Teeze]: [Deathbringer's Will] Min 20
- [W][Drzoidberg]: 2000
- [W][Allandria]: 2200

In the above example, Allandria has won the item and pays a total of 2005 dkp.

Armor has a minimum dkp bid of 20, Weapons have a minimum of 30. Offspec is half of the minimum for mainspec (10 for armor, 15 for weapons).

We also make sure that Raiders get priority on items, therefore an item will always go to a raider first, and will only go to initiates when no raiders need an item for mainspec.

The officers have several unique powers within the system (that we would never use for our gain, I promise you all). First of all, we reserve the right to veto a bid. This is something that will only be used in extreme circumstances, when it is clear that an item is not beneficial to the raider who won, we may pass it to the second highest bid. This was mostly implemented back in Ulduar when we were just starting out and we didn't have the best people in our raids, and even then, the number of times that we have used this power can be counted on one hand. Our second power is that of the loot council which I will explain below.

Our loot council only applies to tier tokens. The reason this was implemented was due to a ninja incident a while back in ToC, however it isn't like we still feel that ninjaing is an issue. The system just has been in place and worked fairly well. Each piece goes for 300dkp mainspec and 150dkp offspec. Here are the criteria we consider when deciding loot council:

  • Rank within the guild (Raiders will always receive pieces before initiates)
  • Performance within the raid (DPS, healing capabilities, lack of deaths, etc... We want to
    gear our "best" members of the raid first, just the way it is. Do all you can to increase
    your performance and I promise you will see a token faster Smile
  • Your role within the guild (We want to try to gear tanks, dps, and healers equally. Therefore,
    if we have the option, we would take turns tossing one token to a healer then one to a dps
    then one to a tank and repeat.)
  • How many pieces you have received thus far (we want all mainspec to get two tokens before giving a third piece to anyone on that token)
  • Time in the guild (this is definitely not as important as the other criteria)
  • How much gold you bribe me with (ok, not really... (still welcome though Razz ))


Hopefully this clears up some questions you may have had. We know people were concerned about the way we were handling things.

Here are some things that we are considering for the future:

- Letting OS tokens go for DKP. The problem is that we are basically rolling for them anyway,
seeing as we don't benefit much at all from most of your offspecs. The thing is that we do
reserve the right to ensure that our players who do raid occasionally in offspec get priority
over other offspecs (Gryff and his tank set, Me and my holy set, Tiger and his resto set etc...
Of course, these would not take priority over mainspec players, just other offspec players)
- Changing MS tokens to DKP. This is a lot trickier, and obviously we would not implement a
system like this for ICC seeing as we already have given tokens out through loot council.
It would be a longer term change.
This would obviously be a very controversial change. Please post in this thread if you feel strongly for or against the way we do tokens now (loot council).

If there are any other questions or concerns that you have about our loot system and our implementation of it, please post in this thread. We will do our best to address them in order to create the best possible environment for the guild.

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Last edited by Voltage on Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tigersoul
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:57 am

I think the main concern over this was an officer who is a dpser got the first heroic token for their set first before the tank(s) or healer(s) that are raiders that share the same token.

But I do prefer the loot council for the tokens... mainly cause of that ToTC thing
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Voltage
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:16 pm

@Tigersoul wrote:
I think the main concern over this was an officer who is a dpser got the first heroic token for their set first before the tank(s) or healer(s) that are raiders that share the same token.

But I do prefer the loot council for the tokens... mainly cause of that ToTC thing

Well the way we decided that was that the first token (vanq) went to Teeze, a healer, and when the second token dropped we had two options if we wanted to stick to our rotation, either a tank or a dps. Now the only protector token tanks are warriors and Gryff's tank spec has been his offspec for the past few weeks. Thus, we decided to give it to a dps and zoid happened to be that dps. If you remember the next token went to me, a tank, and then our latest one went to muhati, a healer. So we are sticking to the rotation at the moment, and that was the reason for that.

Now, I think I see what you are saying in that you want a rotation per token (ie Healers get the first vanq, conq, and prot, then dps get the second one in their set, then the third goes to a tank and so on). I hadn't really thought of doing it like this to be honest, but it may make a bit more sense. I'll see what the others think.

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Tigersoul
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:39 pm

@Voltage wrote:

Now, I think I see what you are saying in that you want a rotation per token (ie Healers get the first vanq, conq, and prot, then dps get the second one in their set, then the third goes to a tank and so on). I hadn't really thought of doing it like this to be honest, but it may make a bit more sense. I'll see what the others think.


That's how I thought it was done especially since we get Vanq 90% of the time
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Gryffith
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:36 pm

@Tigersoul wrote:
@Voltage wrote:

Now, I think I see what you are saying in that you want a rotation per token (ie Healers get the first vanq, conq, and prot, then dps get the second one in their set, then the third goes to a tank and so on). I hadn't really thought of doing it like this to be honest, but it may make a bit more sense. I'll see what the others think.


That's how I thought it was done especially since we get Vanq 90% of the time

TBH I think healers and MS tanks should get their 4pc before the dps even touch tokens, our dps doesn't need the upgrade as much as our healers and tanks do, and gearing our tanks and healers will benefit us the most.
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Tigersoul
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:40 pm

Well, you do cause a lot of the hard modes are also dps checks, so you can't stack your tanks and healers and still expect to kill shit
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Gryffith
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:43 pm

@Tigersoul wrote:
Well, you do cause a lot of the hard modes are also dps checks, so you can't stack Your tanks and healers and still expect to kill shit
dps checks that we have the dps for and we end up 24 manning most of, so like i said we wont benefit as much from spreading out the tokens as we would from stacking tanks and healers, notice Most top guild(paragon ensidia) all their tanks/healers are 4pc 277 and their dps is only like 1-2 piece some 3 and an occasional 4pc. Even when they had just started killing HM token bosses I guarantee you they went to the tank/healer specs. Theres a reason for it.
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hurin
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:44 pm

@Gryffith wrote:
TBH I think healers and MS tanks should get their 4pc before the dps even touch tokens, our dps doesn't need the upgrade as much as our healers and tanks do, and gearing our tanks and healers will benefit us the most.

i know i'm new and such, but i'll have to disagree with the above. i have always fought against tank-first gearing in equilibrium (and i was the main tank!) because, frankly, most wipes are not because of tank death. they are because we didn't meet enrage timers, or the dps were too squishy and got gibbed.

^ self defeating opinion, in the short-run.

but in the long-run? the exact opposite, i think.
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Gryffith
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:48 pm

@hurin wrote:
@Gryffith wrote:
TBH I think healers and MS tanks should get their 4pc before the dps even touch tokens, our dps doesn't need the upgrade as much as our healers and tanks do, and gearing our tanks and healers will benefit us the most.

i know i'm new and such, but i'll have to disagree with the above. i have always fought against tank-first gearing in equilibrium (and i was the main tank!) because, frankly, most wipes are not because of tank death. they are because we didn't meet enrage timers, or the dps were too squishy and got gibbed.

^ self defeating opinion, in the short-run.

but in the long-run? the exact opposite, i think.
and like I said 3 or 4 times now >< our dps isnt an issue, we've long ago proven that, 23 manning BQL with 15-25 sec to spare on enrage. Not having the dps for a fight and having the dps die during the encounter resulting in a wipe are 2 very different things. Gear doesn't make you smart. For example on BQL we had trouble with heals this last week, 2 of my deaths were not from people stacking on me, they were simply me not getting the heals i needed to survive, and tbh we had trouble with heals on almost every boss.
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Tore
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:01 pm

We were also short on heals, losing an H Pally and Celi working, and Tiger being our offspec healer at a concert on Wednesday, and with some heals keeping an eye on Veiss throughout BQL. It wasn't really an optimal setup for deciding what group, if any, should have priority. It would be like if we were short on dps and having trouble beating her enrage so the decision was to gear dps out more.

TBH the way it's been going so far seems fine to me. It was just unlucky that it was DPSs turn on the first Heroic token we got, and someone thought we give priority to DPS. That's all that really happened. I honestly can't think of any time when we said in raid "the tanks/heals/DPS just aren't geared enough." Gear isn't an issue for anyone atm.
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hurin
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:07 pm

@Gryffith wrote:
and like I said 3 or 4 times now >< our dps isnt an issue, we've long ago proven that, 23 manning BQL with 15-25 sec to spare on enrage. Not having the dps for a fight and having the dps die during the encounter resulting in a wipe are 2 very different things. Gear doesn't make you smart. For example on BQL we had trouble with heals this last week, 2 of my deaths were not from people stacking on me, they were simply me not getting the heals i needed to survive, and tbh we had trouble with heals on almost every boss.

well, if the dps'ers truly are this awesome, then you won't hear any more arguing from me about gear. glad i joined as a tank. XD!

but in all honesty, the only real reason that i can see for gearing up tanks first is threat sensitive fights. blue posts have taken the issue of tank threat seriously, in that each stack of hellscream's warsong increases dps by 5%, and survivability by 5%. but not threat by 5%.

and yeah, in a perfect world where ALL tank damage = an equal amount of threat, then i could see it being balanced. but a lot of our abilities are "does shitty damage but causes a high amount threat" where the term "high amount" usually means a flat number, like 2.5 sunders worth of threat or something along those lines. point being, threat abilities don't always scale the way dps scales.

however, in the last two days i've raided with you guys, threat-capping on most bosses really didn't seem to be a problem, tbh. but then again, we're only at two stacks of hellscream's warsong right now in icc.

i still kindof think it should be fair all the way around, for all three roles, for "even" raid growth, but w/e.
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Gryffith
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:13 pm

For me Gear is Gear, i could give 2 shits about getting loot(dont get me wrong i love when i get loot) but i still stand by my reasoning, there is a reason the top guilds gear their people the way they do, and that is all im saying Smile and fyi, im a DPS warrior, so i dont plan on getting chosen for H tokens anytime soon anyway ><
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Zoidberg
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:22 pm

@Gryffith wrote:
For me Gear is Gear, i could give 2 shits about getting loot(dont get me wrong i love when i get loot) but i still stand by my reasoning, there is a reason the top guilds gear their people the way they do, and that is all im saying Smile and fyi, im a DPS warrior, so i dont plan on getting chosen for H tokens anytime soon anyway ><

a reason that high end guilds like paragon or ensidia gear there tanks and healers up first is that they get to the HM-LK type fights alot sooner than most guild would. Think of it this way, Paragon was 11/12HM the first week meaning that they only had 3 heroic tier pieces in their raid the first time they attempted HM-LK, where as us, we will probably have like 15-20 pieces of heroic tier before we try heroic LK. When a guild like paragon gets to the truly hard fights, they obviously have much less chances at the heroic gear so it would only make sense to gear out tanks/healers first. Using this model, our raid will have alot more chances at heroic gear before we even see truly hard content. So for us to just say, "we are going to distribute gear evenly" makes the most sense so that when we get to a fight where the gear actually matter, everyone will be prepared, not just tanks.
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hurin
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:27 pm

to be honest, the problem kindof solves itself. if you follow a "fair" strategy of healer -> dps -> tank -> healer -> dps -> tank -> healer, etc, eventually the healers and tanks will be geared first anyways, because in a raid there are usually 3 tanks and 6 healers, and a lot more dps. so while the dps will still be waiting for get their 4pc, the tanks and healers will already be done. so it's kindof moot. shrug.
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:31 pm

@hurin wrote:
to be honest, the problem kindof solves itself. if you follow a "fair" strategy of healer -> dps -> tank -> healer -> dps -> tank -> healer, etc, eventually the healers and tanks will be geared first anyways, because in a raid there are usually 3 tanks and 6 healers, and a lot more dps. so while the dps will still be waiting for get their 4pc, the tanks and healers will already be done. so it's kindof moot. shrug.

yea exactly, if we follow our model, by the time we get to the fight that really counts(LK), our tanks and healers will have their 4pc well before our dps will. so yea, moot point.
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Gryffith
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:39 pm

Drzoidberg wrote:
@hurin wrote:
to be honest, the problem kindof solves itself. if you follow a "fair" strategy of healer -> dps -> tank -> healer -> dps -> tank -> healer, etc, eventually the healers and tanks will be geared first anyways, because in a raid there are usually 3 tanks and 6 healers, and a lot more dps. so while the dps will still be waiting for get their 4pc, the tanks and healers will already be done. so it's kindof moot. shrug.

yea exactly, if we follow our model, by the time we get to the fight that really counts(LK), our tanks and healers will have their 4pc well before our dps will. so yea, moot point.
but arguing our views is so damn fun!!! :p but ya i see where your coming from and i have to agree aswell, it does make sense for us.
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Jub
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PostSubject: Re: Conviction's Loot Distribution Policy (4/22)   Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:54 pm

My point of view as a healer is that tanks should get marks first, then dps and healers equally in rotation. A tank taking less damage helps the healers and a tank not dying helps everyone.
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